Travis Montez, a lawyer, writer, and mental health advocate, joins co-hosts Daniel W.K. Lee and Shane Lukas to discuss his work empowering youth, the importance of self-determination, and how his LGBTQ+ identity and poetry inform his advocacy.
There’s a lot of poetics involved in figuring out the words that humanize another human being to another. That’s my work as a poet has been representing my own humanity to a world that I felt didn’t always recognize it. And I think, particularly when you’re advocating for marginalized people. And what poetry has taught me is you have to be creative and you have to sort of start with the world you want and work your way backwards.
Daniel (00:00:26 –> 00:00:46):
Hello and welcome to Power Beyond Pride, a queer change making podcast bringing you voices and ideas from across our fierce and fabulous spectrum to transform our world. I’m Daniel W.K. lee, poet, author and publisher’s clearinghouse stamp collector based out of New Orleans.
Shane (00:00:47 –> 00:01:05):
And I am your co host, Shane Lukas, lifelong harm, queer liberation and bodily autonomy activist, advocate, expert and owner of a great idea. We are your co hosts for today’s Queer Cast journey. In this episode, we are talking to lawyer, poet, mental health advocate, and Tennessee born Brooklynite Travis Montez.
Travis (00:01:05 –> 00:01:07):
Thank you for having me.
Daniel (00:01:08 –> 00:01:19):
In addition to his work at the Legal Aid Society, Travis is the co president of the Arthur Project, Redefining youth, mentoring and empowering the community to make an impact.
Shane (00:01:20 –> 00:01:33):
Travis, it’s such a pleasure to have you here today because it feels like this world needs people who are there for youth and queer youth in particular. Is it just me or is it getting more and more challenging for young people to look at the future and say, yeah, that’s mine, I get it.
Travis (00:01:34 –> 00:03:22):
Absolutely. I think getting. Well, this is what I’ll say. I think if I were to compare like young people today to when I was young, I think, um, for me, it, it was difficult to find a path, but there was a path, right? There was like an expectation of a road I should follow and, and whether or not that road was accessible to me, I felt like that was the journey. Like, how do I get on that road to get to be a lawyer or a writer or whatever, right? But, uh, it was expected that I go to college and that I do this thing. I think for the young people that I’ve worked with over the last 20 years, either that road seems really, um, inaccessible or they’re like, why would I do. Why, why would I go into debt to do this thing that doesn’t seem like a way to happiness to me. And there are these other interests that I have and I think adults are doing. I think it took me a while to sort of like shift my own ego out of my, my role as a youth advocate isn’t to get them to be me. It’s to get them to be self determining. And I think a lot of adults struggle with that because the world that kids live in is so foreign to what I grew up with. Right. Like my, the world that I grew up in wasn’t. Was different than my parents, but not drastically different. Right. The world that young people grew up in today is so different than the world. And what’s possible, they’re bigger dreamers than I think I ever was. And I think adults find that scary because what’s the stability in that? They don’t, in my experience, aren’t aspiring for stability. They’re aspiring for honesty, authenticity, happiness. And that’s. Those weren’t things that I was taught to look for in an adult life. So I think that’s scary. As a young, as a person who is advocating for them, it could be scary because you don’t know what that looks like. And. But that’s okay.
Daniel (00:03:23 –> 00:03:26):
So I’m kind of curious. I mean, I’ve known you for now.
Travis (00:03:26 –> 00:03:29):
It’S like, oh, we don’t need to put a year, we don’t need to put years on it.
Shane (00:03:30 –> 00:03:32):
It’s been for, it’s, it’s been a long time.
Travis (00:03:32 –> 00:03:33):
Since college.
Daniel (00:03:33 –> 00:03:40):
We can say that since college. And you, uh, know, it’s just been so great to like, see you.
Shane (00:03:41 –> 00:03:41):
Um.
Daniel (00:03:41 –> 00:04:02):
Blossom in so many ways in your writing and of course in the, in the Arthur Project. And I’m curious, like, what was that trajectory like for you? Like, how did you come out of like law school and then, um, get into kind of mentoring and then eventually like taking these kind of like leadership role at, uh, the Arthur Project.
Travis (00:04:03 –> 00:10:24):
Yeah. So I went to law school thinking that I was going to do entertainment law. That’s where all my work prior to going to law school had been. And then in my last year of law school, I did this clinic where you interned doing juvenile rights, juvenile justice work at the Legal Aid Society. So like, you got partnered with an attorney, you had your own admin, own little caseload where I represented kids in Brooklyn who’d been arrested and accused of crime. I never even knew that work existed. It was just sort of like a thing I decided to do my last year of law school because it was like a full year. I didn’t have to go to class, you know, um, it was something to do instead of sitting in a lecture all day. And if we started that internship in September, by October I was like, this is what I want to do. And the young people were the best part of it. But the idea of like using my education. And I was good at it. I’m not going to lie and say, like, it was like being in court articulating a defense for a young person or humanizing a young person to a judge who probably had no experience similar to the kids sitting next to me. I was good at that. And it felt good to like use my talents in that way. And I never knew that you could work and feel that kind of thing. I certainly didn’t feel that way. Like, I enjoyed working in entertainment, but it wasn’t as fulfilling and as rewarding or as, uh, community focused as what I was doing during that internship. And that it was a job that I could go to every day blew my mind. And in that role, it took a long time, if I’m being honest, to figure out what they call now, like work, life, balance. There was no such term then. It’s easy, I think, to come to that work with the idea that you’re saving someone. Uh, and young people taught me very quickly that I was not saving them, that they were the experts on their lives, that I was not there to be like a substitute for a parent or a social. Like I was their lawyer. And through a lot of mistakes and experiences, I learned to focus on being the best lawyer for young people that I could be. And that was, I think, empowering to myself and got me really clear on what contribution was and was not. I did that work for a long time at Legal Aid. I left Legal Aid for a little bit to do that work at a different place called the Door, because Legal Aid caseload, I think when I left Legal Aid, and I’m not gonna say the year when I left legal aid after four or five years, uh, um, I probably have 80 clients with active trial level cases. And that was, I don’t know if that sounds crazy, but it was. And so I was like facing burnout. And how to me, how burnout looked was I felt like I resented the people that I was meant to be working for. Right. Like that’s how it felt. And I knew that’s not a way to do the work. And I needed to take a step back. And I found a position that offered me to do similar work but in a much slower pace and in a different environment. So instead of being like a court appointed lawyer for young people, I worked at an agency where young people came and sought help. And so I got to manage my case a little differently. I got to do a variety of cases. I got into juvenile immigration, which was like an eye opening world, but um, it allowed me to work with kids in a more empowered way, a greater range of kids. And I really like that youth centered, empowering approach. And so when I came back to Legal Aid as a supervisor, I had that mentality with me and that’s sort of, um, impacted how I train people. Again, you’re not saving anyone. And certainly don’t be in here acting like you’re visiting a zoo. These are human beings and you’re a lawyer. We are client directed. We do what they say, we advise, we don’t coach, we don’t try to make them make the choices that we would make. And I’m not saying that all those things are easy, but I think that’s the just way to do the job. Um, and so in doing that, eventually I got involved with the Arthur Project just as a board member. And it was a new organization that had just started and it’s a youth mentoring program. What’s so great about the Arthur Project is that it’s social work students who are um, mentors for middle school students. They’re um, supervised by social worker and it’s in school, so they get time with their, their social work mentor in school and we do weekend programming with them. So they started with two schools in the Bronx and now they’re also at a, uh, performing arts school in Brooklyn. And I’m the board president. I’ve been that for three years now. And I think the important part of that for me is I, again, I’m just aware of the importance of support and guidance from adults. That’s not directive. That like the way that you want to be in a young person’s life is to encourage self determination which requires like a safety of introspection. Which I think that was not a safe thing to do when I was a kid. And I really love being a part of, even though like I’m not directly mentoring, I’m um, part of um, helping this organization grow that’s really working with young people in a different mentoring way. My experience of other mentorship programs and mentorship relationships has very much been, let me teach you how to be me. Let me show you what’s possible. Because I did it. So I feel like it’s very much focused on the mentor and this feels to me feels very focused on the mentee. I think why social workers work or social work students work is because in their education is sort of like this anti racist language that. So they come to the table with that and also they have the capacity. Listen, when I started the board, uh, my first Board meeting was at the end of 2019 with the. My expectation of just being a board member going into 2020. We all know what happened in 2020. The pandemic happened. And so we were this school based program suddenly where schools were shut down. And so like we had to pivot and figure out how do we support young people in this unprecedented um, time. And social work students we found were actually very well oriented to help kids deal with all these mental health issues that erupted that we had not anticipated. And so even coming out of the pandemic that became a central part of our programming going forward.
Shane (00:10:25 –> 00:11:24):
I mean that’s so powerful to me. I think one of the things that what you said around self determination is so I guess I want to dig into this a little bit more because uh, to me it also ties to this idea you talk about also around what it means to go into this work and not save people. Because I think so so much of what motivates many people to think like I want to be engaged in my communities and I think I know best and I really am there to shape like you said, from whether it’s a social work environment or whether you’re talking about again just the philosophy Arthur Project is taking. It’s really trying to create this idea that like we are still learning what your journey is and if we shape a solution to that, that’s really powerful to me. Can you share a little bit about the uh. Since you’ve been working for very few years in your young age, could you share a little bit about what you feel the impacts of watching other systems work at a much more savior based model has done. Like what you feel like you’re in.
Travis (00:11:24 –> 00:14:45):
Some ways, well, it’s harmful. Like uh, I can actually talk about it in my own practice and how I quickly learned that it didn’t work. It’s harmful for both you and, and the young person that you’re like purported to be working with. Right. So what I learned very quickly is that, you know, I have a perspective, but it’s just that like I can see the world from where I’m standing, but that doesn’t show me everything. And I don’t necessarily know in my if my relationship with my client is appropriate. I don’t necessarily know everything about this young person’s life. And so I can’t really tell them that this is the right decision because they have a lot going on that they appropriately aren’t sharing with me and a lot of considerations that maybe I don’t know. And that’s Fine and fair. But also, like you, there’s a limit to your perspective. Right? And so, uh, what taught me this is like, one of my clients who, like, I was very much overly invested in, and I wanted him to do school a certain kind of way because that was the way that I had done it. And I was going to give him the most options, advice that probably conventional at the time seemed wise. And he and I, like, beefed about it. And like, anytime you’re beefing with your client about their decisions, you’ve gone off the rails. But we were, like, beefing about it. And he did it his way. And he, Fine. He found his GED program, found the work for him himself. He didn’t need, first of all, he didn’t need the level of, like, guidance that I thought he was asking for, a particular kind of guidance. And I was giving him what I thought he needed, not what he was asking for. And he, fine. I went to his wedding, I met his children. You know, like, he, fine. He’s a nurse now. Fine. He’s like, what in so many. Like, you never know what’s going to happen in the future with these. With. So, like, just serve the purpose that’s in front of you and give what’s being requested in front of you. And that’s. That’s the gift, right? That’s the service. That’s what it means to be of service. Not to sort of force your safety net, your safe road on, um, them. He was like, I’m going to take some risks because this is what. Because this is what my. And there was a lot. Again, what I would learn later is that there was a lot going on in his life that made his choice his choice. And not that he had to prove that to me or justify to me. I’m just saying the time allowed me perspective to see where my perspective at that time was limited and that they colored the way that I worked to just trust the young person in front of me, that if I showed up and told them, this is what you can count on me for, and I delivered what I said I was going to do that, that. And gave them all the information that I had, that they were going to make the best decision for them and to trust that. And that was my job, and that was my service that is so powerful. That’s parenting. Parenting is like that other stuff. And I’m certainly not that by design. And yeah, so that’s. I think that’s the only way to really do it. That’s the only way. And certainly when I think of my own life. Have I made decisions that my mentors didn’t agree with or told me weren’t the safe way, or. Or I went after things that, from their fear of what they’d gone through, told me weren’t possible. Absolutely. And so to sort of, like, have the humility to know that I achieved those things doesn’t make me any more or less wise than they were. Often when you’re doing that, you are speaking from your own fear rather than your. The person that you’re working with, the person that you’re working with, their bravery and their risk.
Shane (00:14:46 –> 00:15:13):
I love that because I also. What you’re illustrating to me is also that the oppressional landscape we experienced when we’re talking about multigenerational work is not the same shape. And like you said, we may be giving our suggestions in ways that reflect our journey, which is really. Which is important, but at the same time, they’re facing a different landscape. Because if we’ve done our work, we’ve maybe changed some of those barriers, we’ve maybe changed some of those things. And so the realms of possibilities are just greater than we even could imagine.
Travis (00:15:14 –> 00:15:26):
Or there are things that we failed on in some ways worse. Right. I don’t know them. Going into debt for a college degree makes sense today the way that it did in the late 1900s.
Shane (00:15:26 –> 00:15:28):
There’s a few holidays coming through.
Daniel (00:15:30 –> 00:15:38):
100%. 100%. I’m curious, what keeps you motivated in doing this and this work, you know.
Travis (00:15:38 –> 00:19:11):
That’S a really great question. Um, so I will give. I will give you. I’ve been doing this for 22 years now. The mode, the motivation has ebbed and waned over that time, as you can imagine. I think you have to. Or. I’ve had to find my spark at different times. I had to get really clear on, like, why my why. I had to be clear. And I think there’s a reassessment that has to take place from time to time of not just your why, but your what. What do you even have to give in this world and in. Right. And so when I was a staff attorney and being in the trenches, that. That felt a certain kind of way. And then as a manager, I’m not in the. I’m not representing clients directly anymore. I’m supervising the people who do it. And I found a different kind of joy, um, in training the next generation of people. And. How can I put this? That won’t give me weeding out the things that I think are harmful and can be harmful. In this practice. Right. I’ve been doing it long enough to sort of see systemic changes that my agency has made in New York City for young people that I’m very proud of. Um, but as any agency, there’s always ways in which you’re looking at yourself critically and things that you want to shift and change in the practice. Um, and so training people to have that mindset. Right. Because when you work with young people, I think what draws you is like, no one comes to work with. I shouldn’t say, this is going to say no one comes working with young people because they hate young people, but actually don’t think that’s true. But I think you. I think there’s a way in which you can come to young people and lose perspective on, um, what your role is. And particularly this job that I have as an attorney for children, that job requirement has shifted. There was a time where, like, you came in there and you were saving children. That was. Judges came in and expected you to sort of give your opinion on what was the best interest of your client. And quickly that shifted to, no, you are an attorney. You should tell me what your client wants, and you should zealously advocate for your. What your client wants and argue that that is best interest and. Or not. So, like doing direct representation, I. For like a 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 year old. I think it’s hard for people who think and necessarily so, like, if your client comes to you and says, I want to go home to a parent that has done awful thing, that’s a hard thing to get in your head about. Like, how do I represent? How do I do that? Am I responsible for that? I think that’s a hard conversation. That’s not how I frame it, and that’s not how I tell people to frame it. Just if you are an adult and you, when you as an adult go to your lawyer and you tell your lawyer, this is what I want, and you expect your lawyer to do what you say that’s what you should be doing. For the fact that they’re a child actually doesn’t make that any difference. And I think it’s a hard way to think of it, but that’s. That’s the gig. And so, like, I think what keeps me doing it is one I’ve seen and I’m keenly aware of what this work can be like if it goes wrong. And I’m very inspired by not letting it do that. I think we can be, I think advocating for children and for children having a voice is important. I think people will hear this and go, particularly if you’re a parent. And you would think my 5 year old shouldn’t be directing an attorney to have an opinion in court. But I would say if you were, when you were 5, did you know whether or not you wanted to live with your mom? There, there is that element of it that I think is very, I think it’s a very important job. I think it’s a job that people don’t really know about. It’s a career that people don’t know about. And it takes a very specific type of training and guidance. And there are not a lot of me doing this work, um, but there are a lot of people who look like me who are the subject of it.
Daniel (00:19:12 –> 00:19:23):
Well, let’s take a short break here and we’ll get back to you in less than a minute. Please don’t leave us. We’re very sensitive. We’re just getting started with our conversation with Travis. We’ll be right back.
Shane (00:19:26 –> 00:19:59):
Welcome back to Power Beyond Pride, a queer change making podcast. I’m your co host Shane, here with my co host Daniel, and we are talking with the amazing Travis Montez. Before the break, we were talking about your motivation with working with youth, both through your job and also through your work with the Arthur project. Now you mentioned a little bit about your own journey and seeing it in relationship to young people today. Uh, can you share a little bit about your journey that led you toward wanting to be in service, wanting to connect in that way? I think that’s really powerful to me in terms of what, you know, we talked about motivation, but in your own journey. I’d love to hear about, about that.
Travis (00:20:00 –> 00:25:40):
My therapist would love this question. Um, you know, I’ve actually thought a lot about like, what makes me want to do this work. And I think it’s because I had, I think a lot of people who come to like advocate on behalf of kids are, uh, because they were maybe kids who did not have advocates when they were young. I grew up in the 80s 90s Tennessee as a gay, dark skinned, feminine black boy. That was not always a safe world for me. I had a very difficult home life though. My parents loved me very much. But there was a lot of violence in my home growing up. A m. Lot of instability from most of my childhood. I think it like leveled out towards my like high school. That’s 14, 15 years of bouncing around a lot. I was like a very vulnerable child that like people took advantage of. And I think what drew me to this work, again, happenstance, really of doing the internship. But when I found out like I could be a voice over young people who experienced some of what I experienced or like things worse, I certainly never got in trouble with the law. But like I recognized the world where like police were always around and how that could look. And I certainly had family members who did. And it felt just right to be have that sensitivity working with these kids in that way. And I sort of had an inkling of how when you are a black kid who makes a mistake, or even when you’re a black kid who’s doing well, there are various systems who don’t look at you like a child. And I knew very much what it was like to be a child and not be treated as one or not being given the same grace or nurture or protection as a child. And I think that made me be able to articulate and advocate in a very different way. That made me very successful at doing it. And I like doing things that I’m successful at. But I also loved, I loved the work and I loved the kids were the best part. The young people are always sort of like the best part. They’re the most resilient part. As I’ve come to do this, I’d say like this new. The new generation of lawyers are, uh, almost as equally rewarding for me because I also know what it’s like to come out of law school very poor and very in debt. But I’m a young professional of color and how the court system can treat you or what that journey is like. So I also enjoy mentoring and training people through that process to do this work they love for communities that they identify with. I think that’s the draw of it. And I’m always looking for other ways to contribute and give where I can. I did not listen when I. A friend of mine was a founder of the Arthur Project. She was a friend who I helped her write her memoir. Her name’s Liz Murray. People may know her as the homeless to Harvard lady. She grew up in the Bronx to drug addicted parents. She was homeless for a long time as a teenager, uh, and somehow managed to get herself into Harvard. Went for many years and graduated. Very inspiring story. She started this project, the Arthur Project. The Arthur comes from her mentor who sort of encouraged her to like, find her own path to get to where she wanted. I just sort of came on as a regular board member thinking that I would like raise a couple of dollars and like visit the school a couple of times a year. And then they needed in that time, in that Sort of volatile time, because if you remember, not only the pandemic was happening, Georgia, Florida, Black Lives Matter movement was jumping off, and we sort of really needed to, like, look at this organization and this board that was, like, in schools with predominantly young people of color and I think actually predominantly black kids, making sure that, um, we had a foundation to last. Because, you know, what I will say about a lot of services for young people, particularly the population that we are serving, is that they come and go. And the last thing that I think any of us wanted was to be one of those. And the last thing that you don’t want to be something that young people depend on and make a difference, and then you disappear because it’s not run right, or the board’s not together, or people aren’t invested and still a young organization. But we’re like. But I was very drawn to the task of figuring that piece out and growing that board in a certain kind of way and defining the values and laying the foundation. Um, we called it, like, they moved from a founding board to a governing board. And that’s. That was my job. That is my job, as I see it in that place, to make sure that this continues to be our resource for young people in this way. Um, I don’t know if you remember middle school, 10th grade. I mean, fifth grade. I don’t care who you are, resourced or not, if things are going perfect or not, that is an awful time to be a child. And that is when everything changes. And if you could have. Imagine having someone that, like, in the middle, uh, of all that, you have an hour that you can just go and talk to, like a real trained, supervised, culturally competent advocate. How much a difference that would make, right? And also sort of like advocate for educational system where that’s not needed. Um, but we are not there yet. So to be there, to be what’s needed until we have that. And I, you know, thinking of all the ways in which I can support young people being a lawyer is one way that doesn’t hit all the buttons. Chairing the Arthur Project is like another way. And I’m sure, you know, I’m an uncle. That’s another way. I have 14 nieces and nephews. And so if I’m. If I’m honest, those young people are really who keep me, um, my nieces and nephews, who I think are brilliant and wonderful and sassy and keep me humble. I think they’re my motivation for a lot of things.
Daniel (00:25:40 –> 00:26:11):
It sounds like queerness. Queerness and blackness is really kind of like, informed and really kind of propelled you towards this work. And there isn’t, at least historically, I would say there isn’t a lot of. There may be like, uh, external. There’s like, kind of a bit of an antagonism set up between this idea of queerness and, like, being around children, child services. And I’m kind of curious, like, maybe in your experience in the past 22.
Travis (00:26:11 –> 00:26:16):
Years, we can say, I feel like we look good enough that we can own that. 22 years. 22 years.
Daniel (00:26:17 –> 00:26:26):
How that has, like how it’s been, how that environment has changed and for you. And then how does, um, it look now in this. In these times?
Travis (00:26:26 –> 00:30:18):
So I will say this. When I started, or a lot of. Even though we’re attorneys, I think anything where you’re working with children is seen as like, a nurturing career or a caregiving career in a kind of way, even though we’re not caregivers. But there’s that thing. And I think historically, any of those jobs are seen as women’s jobs. And a majority of the lawyers that, where I work are women. I feel like I was kind of not the first. Um, one of my mentors was like a gay black attorney. And we often got confused for each other. And that’s a whole other story for us. Like, a lot of gay men are, like, in the work where I work, I feel like we’ve made space for ourselves. Because if there’s anyone who understands what it means to sort of like, be other, there’s like, a male privilege that happens that we can use, but, like a sensitivity that we can, like, plant a seed and build on, um, that I think works in that space. But I will say that if I started working there in 2003 and in family court in 2003, I’ll start with, like, what my clients would face. If you were, like, a gay kid in foster care in 2003 and you just happened to get put in a foster home or a group home where your caregiver did not like that you were gay and they wanted to do something to change that. There is no rule or policy that prevented them from doing that. There is now, but there was not at the time. So imagine what that world was like. Right? And I knew what that world was like. I knew what it was like to be around people who thought you’re feminine. We need to change that. And similarly, I knew what. And that wasn’t different from being a lawyer walking into family court, I got whispers, I got called M as a grown up and I had to show up every day and do my job and then learn how to demand that my employers protect me and like make that not happen. But that was a process as a professional to sort of. And frankly a process that goes on today when I, I joked about not wanting to use my last name because I’ve had enough stalkers. That was work related. I’ve had in this MAGA world, white supremacists dox me and put my face on the Internet saying that I traffic children. It’s a, it’s a sensitivity and it’s a strength, but it’s also a vulnerability where there are people who very much have these stereotypes about why would you want to work with children if you, if one you don’t have, which I don’t. I don’t have children, but a lot of queer people do. But the, the assumption is that I don’t and that I have some nefarious reason to want to be working with kids. There was a time where I was very defensive about that and now I’m just treated like the absurdity that it is when it is said and just focus on doing my work because it’s a distraction, right? It’s uh, and a lot of times it’s powerless people wanting me to feel as powerless as they do when they say those kind of things are like accused those kind of things. I rarely have found it to be an area of genuine concern as much as just the hostility wanting to take me down or put me in my place. And nobody puts me in my place. So there’s a way with. That’s just empowering to me at this point. But I’ve learned. No, I don’t. I think in the beginning, in 2003 when I was doing this, I just sort of like had to buckle up and deal with it, whether wherever it came from. And now as a manager, I know that there’s no way that I want someone supervising me to be called a, uh, slur in court or get a certain kind of email and just take it. And I see it as my job to make sure that our agency and the courthouse respond to it and let people know that that’s unacceptable. And also if children are being treated that way, that that’s unacceptable. Um, I mean, that be the conversation. You can have your feelings, but you don’t get to treat people any kind of way that you want. You don’t get to be abusive. Again, that’s a, uh, conversation and journey and a work that’s being done 22 years in and that’s powerful.
Shane (00:30:18 –> 00:31:09):
It really speaks to. Again, you know, what I hear you say when you talk about the language, the representation, the modeling of values. All these things are so critical in the work you do every day. But they come in a landscape that has a great deal of hostility to it, has a great deal of internalized and externalized kind of stuff that we’re kind of dealing with. And, you know, um, people may not know that language for you is so critical. And it’s such a key component to how I came to know you initially because you are a poet. You’re a really powerful poet. Really doesn’t, uh. Absolutely. Your work is amazing. And I can again see how these various threads come together to bring that voice to the verse that you shared. And including in your latest book, Peaches Honey Whiskey, can you share a little bit about why poetry has been so important in telling your. Not just telling your story, but sharing stories?
Travis (00:31:09 –> 00:35:23):
Yeah. I again, grew up in the south, and I don’t know if you know many Southerners, but they are storytellers. And, uh, some of my favorite memories, ironically, are like my grandmother reading to me and her favorite book to read was the Bible. I had no idea that the Bible was the Bible between the ages of 3 and 5. I just thought it was this really fat, like, all the stories that were happening were like page turners in my grandmother’s, like, very Southern black woman voice. And I just loved words from like, a. I was like a young reader. I entered school reading. I wasn’t. It may not come across here, but I was not a shy child, but I was an introverted child. I liked my own company and my assumption being feminine and black and being. I did. Other kids may not like me. And so I had a lot of. And I enjoyed being by myself. So I read a lot. I read well before I, like, I even knew that, like, writing poetry was a thing. Even though I knew who poets were, I had never known that I could do that thing. Even though, like, I. What would happen is, like, I would read stories or books sometimes, and I think they didn’t end that right. And then I would, like, make my. And then I would make my own. Or like I said, I was like, no. I remember reading Huck Finn and I’m like, that’s not what Jim would do. That’s really how I started really writing. And then my last year of. And so I was like, journaling also was, like, a thing that I did a lot. Writing feelings out stories, little stories that I would pull from other stories would and like, so whenever we had a project to do in school, from probably fifth grade through high school, if I could write a scene about it to do it, that’s what I was going to do. Or, uh, make a story out of it. That’s 100 what I was going to do. And then my senior year, I took a creative writing class, my first creative writing class ever, the year of high school. And we had a whole poetry project. And you had to make your own chat book. So then you have to write enough poems to do the chapbook. And my Bill Brown was his name. He’s an amazing poet, may he rest in peace. I did my chapbook. He was like, you’re a poet. And I was like, what? And so when I entered nyu, it was to discover what it meant to be like. I was like, oh, I’m going to try this poet. And he’s, you’re going to New York, find poets. And I was like, if Bill Brown tells me to find poets in New York and to do what they do, sure. And I had no idea, like, spoken word was a thing. And I remember writing poems and being at different events in NYU and like, reading my little shaky hand and reading my poems. But then I went to this event at NYU and I heard my first spoken word poet for the first time, Mariposa Fernandez. And she blew, um, my mind. And I was like, whatever that is I want to do. That thing just got introduced, like, when I’m saying that, like Emmanuel Xavier, who was one of the first gay poets I think, that I ever read. A friend handed me his book. I didn’t even know that was a thing. And then his little, this is how old we are. His email address was in the back of his book, and it was an AOL address. And I was on AOL, so you could go. So then I like DM Tim. I slid in his DMS in the late 1900s. And he. Ironically, I was in a mentoring program at the time. So the kid, Actually a kid. A kid gave me his book and was like, I like this guy. And so I found him and took the kid that I was mentoring to see him perform, and I made a deal with her. And he was at the Nyrican and there was an open mic after. And I made a deal with the young person that I was mentoring. If you read a poem in the open mic, I’ll read a poem at the open mic. And that’s how I did my first open mic at the Nuyorican. I won the open mic and then I just kept coming back. Emanuel Xavier became my poetry mentor. And then here we are a thousand years later, still writing words and still mentoring.
Shane (00:35:24 –> 00:35:25):
Big shout out to Emmanuel.
Daniel (00:35:26 –> 00:35:27):
Does he know that story too?
Travis (00:35:28 –> 00:35:32):
He does know that story. I mean, he was. He was. Yeah, he was. He absolutely knows that story.
Daniel (00:35:32 –> 00:35:34):
That’s amazing, man.
Shane (00:35:34 –> 00:35:38):
He’s an incredible reader. You’re an incredible reader. So, again, incredible performance.
Daniel (00:35:38 –> 00:35:52):
We’re all poets here, and I would love to hear from you. What do you think the role the poet is these days? Has that really changed? Is there a particular urgency?
Travis (00:35:52 –> 00:37:24):
Um, that is a great question. I think there are a couple of answers to that, both probably personally and then like, community wise, you know, for me right now. And I don’t think this is a controversial, uh, statement. I think, like, the world is on fire. Like, you know, when I. Every time I turn on the news, there’s something horrific harming one of my communities and the world that, like, terrifies me. Um, uh, but I am a firm believer in that joy is resistance and pleasure is resistance. And like, you can’t have hope and you can’t have activism if you’re not dreaming of the world that you want. Um, and creativity is an important part of that for me. So I know that for me, writing, and particularly poetry is just important for my sanity right now, and it’s not. And though political pieces are happening, it’s also important for me to be writing about pleasure and joy and love and romance and connection and community, and also intentionally create those things. And I think that in terms of, like, poet and art as a service, I think it’s important because it. I think that feeds, uh, I think it feeds people. I’m actually doing an event on April 21 called For Love with Love that like, sort of was inspired by wanting to do something I love with people I love in this moment that’s so full of hate because I don’t and hope that it’ll inspire people to do whatever that looks for them to do that also. Because I don’t think you can resist if you don’t have that.
Shane (00:37:25 –> 00:38:18):
I mean. Yeah, absolutely. Right. Like, that is the, uh. Hearing you say that is so critical because it’s part of that imagination. Right? Like, we can’t. We need to be able to have space to imagine, to not only bring the fight into our spirit and make sure, like, we’re there to descent to resist where we need to, but to also imagine something that’s bigger, that’s our full selves, our emotionality. And so again, your work does that also, uh, brings in whiskey and, uh, brings in all kinds of stuff in the mix. And each one of your books, again, always chronicles, I think, much of the journey that you’re on. And so I certainly encourage everyone to check out your library of pieces. They’re all really incredible. We’re going to take a quick pause right now and come back after a short break. We’ll continue our conversation about Travis’s work as a lawyer, poet, and mental health advocate on the other side. And stay tuned to Power Beyond Pride.
Daniel (00:38:25 –> 00:38:44):
Welcome to Power Beyond Pride, a queer change making podcast. I’m, um, your co host Daniel, with my co host Shane, and we’re talking to poet, an activist, someone I once called the Luther Vandross of poetry, Travis Monzes. It’s true. I did, there’s.
Travis (00:38:44 –> 00:38:54):
You did call me that. I was one of my greatest compliments ever. I actually called the Mary J. Blige of poetry. And I like Luther Vandross much better, if I’m being perfectly honest with you.
Shane (00:38:54 –> 00:39:00):
I mean, it’s the sexiness of those you have. You have these sexy love poems that get into that vibe.
Daniel (00:39:00 –> 00:39:10):
So, uh, how does poetry help shape your vision of the impact that you can make in the world and through your activism and your work?
Travis (00:39:10 –> 00:41:55):
That’s such a really great question. I think I’m m answered in two ways. I think I learned early on as a lawyer, specifically a litigator, um, that like, litigators are storytellers. And there’s a certain. And I think what makes me a good lawyer is like, there’s a. I know what words to use and what words not to use. And I’m very intentional. And I think I, I think being a poet and a writer helped that in a. In a great way. I know how to say very, a lot with, with little. I know how to run down the clock by saying a lot. I know how to perform to the audience. I know how to read a room. And I think there, my only stage was the new year, like the new year weekend was a stage in which I began to learn that. And the courtroom is a stage. I think as a story, as like, honing the craft of storytelling is essential to a litigator, and particularly when you are telling the story from the perspective of. So there are two kinds of young people that I represent. Young people who have accused of crimes and young people who are the subject of abuse and neglect cases. And both of those, I think, are people that are not that folks don’t want to listen to or that need advocacy because their voices are not always heard. One of those people are hostile to hearing that voice. A lot of my job sometimes is reminding people in a room that we’re talking about a child, even when they’ve done a horrible thing. And there’s a lot of poetics involved in figuring out the words that humanize another human being to another. That’s my work as a poet has been representing my own humanity to a world that I felt didn’t always recognize it. And so that, that’s the thread that I would say. And I think, particularly when you’re advocating for marginalized people. And what poetry has taught me is you have to be creative and you have to sort of start with the world you want and work your way backwards. And that’s, that’s the reality of it. And believe that the bridge will show up, believe that the road will emerge in front of you. And I think that’s a, that’s an artistic sentiment that I think I trust because I’m an artist and I’ve been arting for so long. If I did not have that, I don’t know that I could activist the way that I do. I m don’t know where my dream. It’d be easy. I engage my dreams as reality. I don’t know that I would do that. I’d just be like a delusional fool otherw if I didn’t have like this artistic world to play in and then bring to reality. I know what the work is to bring something from my brain into the world and share it and not be afraid of how the world is going to see it. That fearlessness, I think. Or not fearlessness. Bravery and boldness I think is probably the word. I wouldn’t be the type of lawyer or advocate I am if I. I think if I weren’t a poet first.
Shane (00:41:56 –> 00:42:02):
Wow. The world needs more poetry, I think. I think it needs more poetry. It needs your poetry.
Travis (00:42:02 –> 00:42:03):
Thank you.
Shane (00:42:03 –> 00:42:14):
Shared. Absolutely. You’ve shared so much with us and we’re gonna take time for a few rapid questions here from us so that the audience can get to know you a bit better. Are you, are you prepared?
Travis (00:42:15 –> 00:42:15):
No.
Shane (00:42:18 –> 00:42:19):
Well, that’s even better.
Travis (00:42:19 –> 00:42:20):
I’m willing.
Shane (00:42:21 –> 00:42:24):
Willing is a great. Willing is a great start.
Daniel (00:42:26 –> 00:42:31):
All right, we’ll start with name, uh, one poet. You always go back or inspiration.
Travis (00:42:32 –> 00:42:33):
Audrey Lord.
Shane (00:42:34 –> 00:42:35):
I love that.
Daniel (00:42:35 –> 00:42:35):
Excellent.
Shane (00:42:36 –> 00:42:39):
All right. Complain to a manager or write a bad review.
Travis (00:42:40 –> 00:42:41):
Write a bad review.
Shane (00:42:42 –> 00:42:42):
Really?
Travis (00:42:43 –> 00:42:50):
Mhm. Yeah. Yes. My written reviews. I won’t even. Yes, right here.
Shane (00:42:50 –> 00:42:55):
We said we get. We. Oh A book. A book of your. Written. Your red.
Travis (00:42:56 –> 00:43:01):
Uh, if I’m honest, probably both. But I enjoy a written review so much more.
Shane (00:43:03 –> 00:43:05):
For sure. I love it. I want to read these.
Daniel (00:43:05 –> 00:43:08):
If you were to make a biopic of yourself, who would play you?
Travis (00:43:09 –> 00:43:10):
Sterling K. Brown.
Daniel (00:43:11 –> 00:43:11):
Okay.
Travis (00:43:12 –> 00:43:12):
Love that.
Shane (00:43:12 –> 00:43:15):
I can see that. All right, so, Diana.
Travis (00:43:15 –> 00:43:17):
I thought of that one. I had that one in the chamber. I’m not even gonna lie to you.
Shane (00:43:18 –> 00:43:20):
Oh, did you already. You already wrote the script. You already sent it.
Daniel (00:43:20 –> 00:43:23):
But you didn’t say Diana Ross, though. It’s very disappointing.
Travis (00:43:23 –> 00:43:24):
I did not. No.
Shane (00:43:24 –> 00:43:28):
Well, I was gonna say Diana. One song that you sing when no one is around.
Travis (00:43:30 –> 00:43:42):
Oh. Oh, that you Got a friend in me song from Toy Story. I love that song. I sing it not all the time, but with some regularity.
Shane (00:43:43 –> 00:43:51):
My heart just melted. That’s so sweet. That was not what I would. I would not. And I’ve known you for a long time. That was not. That was not in the catalog of.
Travis (00:43:51 –> 00:43:55):
Songs I would have thrown, like, it’s on a playlist. That’s how much I like that song.
Shane (00:43:55 –> 00:43:58):
I love it. That is so sweet.
Daniel (00:43:58 –> 00:44:02):
What’s one quality you look for immediately and other people you want to know?
Travis (00:44:02 –> 00:44:03):
Humor.
Daniel (00:44:04 –> 00:44:04):
Absolutely.
Travis (00:44:05 –> 00:44:16):
And here’s why. Because I think to be funny, you have to be smart. And that’s really important to me. If you can laugh at yourself and make me laugh, we’re in. That’s all I need.
Shane (00:44:17 –> 00:44:19):
Love it. Chicken or fish?
Travis (00:44:21 –> 00:44:22):
Ooh, chicken.
Shane (00:44:24 –> 00:44:28):
Yeah, I concur. So, uh, Barbie. Well, actually, should say barbecue or fried.
Travis (00:44:29 –> 00:44:29):
Fried.
Daniel (00:44:31 –> 00:44:31):
Both.
Travis (00:44:31 –> 00:44:33):
But if I had to choose fried.
Shane (00:44:33 –> 00:44:36):
I mean, if you had to choose, you’re on a desert island, and you’re. I don’t know when this.
Travis (00:44:36 –> 00:44:40):
And I’m just frying. Um, somehow we have grease. Yeah. Fried.
Shane (00:44:41 –> 00:44:46):
Save the air. Fryer or the grill. I don’t know. I don’t even know how that works. But sure, we’ll go with it. Fried. Okay. Okay.
Travis (00:44:46 –> 00:44:47):
So.
Shane (00:44:47 –> 00:44:49):
So does that mean we’re going for fried chicken next time I’m in New York?
Travis (00:44:49 –> 00:44:50):
Yes, please.
Shane (00:44:50 –> 00:44:53):
All right, we’re doing it. We’re doing it. Awesome. Love it.
Daniel (00:44:53 –> 00:45:04):
All right, that was the last of, uh, the spitfire. Uh, rapid fire. I’m just spitting fire.
Shane (00:45:04 –> 00:45:06):
We’re all spitfires. There we go, y’ all.
Travis (00:45:06 –> 00:45:08):
Spitfire over here. Nothing. But.
Daniel (00:45:09 –> 00:45:11):
So what’s next for you, Travis?
Travis (00:45:11 –> 00:45:11):
What’s.
Daniel (00:45:11 –> 00:45:13):
What are. What else do you got going on?
Travis (00:45:14 –> 00:46:16):
So at some point in the next couple of months. Don’t ask me. Whatever. So I haven’t. I’ve been dabbling with like essay writing. That’s sort of like a thing that I want to get back to. So I’ve been lucky enough to have an essay of mine included in a book called Artists as Writers and that is coming out soon this summer, I believe. I’m working on an album this summer as well as spoken word album. And so it’s so funny that we talked about mental health and we didn’t touch on this. I also have a podcast. I recorded season two of the podcast like forever ago and just held those episodes in the vault because I had a little mental health journey that I needed to go on before I released them. And they’ve come out the other side. So we’re editing those episodes. My podcast is called Objects in this review. So we’re dropping those episodes this summer. Daniel was one of my guests. Thank you. Look at that face. And yeah, I think that’s, that’s what I’m up to for the next few months.
Shane (00:46:17 –> 00:46:24):
Those days, I love it. So, so they could follow you. They can get your podcast, they can grab a copy of your latest book.
Travis (00:46:25 –> 00:46:30):
Yes. Travis Montez, 23, on Instagram is probably the easiest way to find me and my stuff.
Shane (00:46:31 –> 00:46:52):
Me and your stuff. And it is, it is, it is worth following. There’s always some great updates. It is always, it is always great to be connected and see all the things that you’re creating and the influence you’re having there in New York and across the country and sharing your creativity. We’re excited. This is the first I’ve heard about a new album, so I’m eagerly anticipating that. Very nice.
Daniel (00:46:52 –> 00:47:01):
It’s gonna be awesome. Well, that’s all we have time for this episode of Power Beyond Pride. Thank you so much for joining us today, Travis.
Travis (00:47:01 –> 00:47:04):
It’s been. Thank you for having me. It was fun. Yes.
Daniel (00:47:04 –> 00:47:15):
I’m your co host, Daniel Lee. You can follow me at daniel wkle m.com or just, you know, find me on the street and follow me or something. I don’t know. Just like offer me money though.
Shane (00:47:17 –> 00:47:41):
I’m your other co host, Shane Lukas. You can follow me@shaneLukas.com and follow Shane Lukas on Blue sky or find me on LinkedIn. I also want to take time to thank you, Travis, for joining us in today’s conversation. It is a joy to always spend time with you. Remember to subscribe and get your friends to subscribe to Power Beyond Pride, wherever you get your podcasts and check out our site@powerbeyondpride.com Power Beyond Pride is a.
Daniel (00:47:41 –> 00:47:49):
Project of a great idea. A, uh, queer owned design and content agency. Learn more about them atagreat idea.com this.
Shane (00:47:49 –> 00:47:56):
Episode is produced by Shane Lukas. That’d be me. Smita Sarkar is the project developer. Our editor is Jarrett Redding. We support Ian Wilson.
Daniel (00:47:56 –> 00:48:04):
We are both part of the podcast host team and we invite you to send in your questions and comments to powerbeyondpride.
Shane (00:48:04 –> 00:48:09):
Com and we look forward to queer change making with you at Power Beyond Pride.